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| Your thoughts on vaccines? |
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| Total Votes : 10 |
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 Posted: Wed Oct 28, 09 10:34 am |
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Dude, I'm not anti vaccine, and neither is anyone who has posted in this thread. You don't need to condescend to us the way you've obviously been doing on some other forum. I don't need to read your links to know about vaccines. I don't need an education from you and I refuse to condemn frightened parents of children with autism, even if I don't agree with them. The anti vaccine movement is rarely heard from in the media here, so I don't think their influence is that great. I don't know anyone who doesn't get their children vaccinated for school, and most of the people I know also get flu vaccines. So you can drop the aggressive debate style.. it's making you look a little nutty.
You come across like a zealot, unwilling to even comprehend what anyone else is saying. I explained to you why some people do not trust the big pharmaceutical companies and you replied with some BS about how they're required by law to make a profit. Companies are not required by law to lobby congress or support politicians. They are not required by law to make as much profit as they possibly can no matter how they do it. Maybe they are in your country, but not in the US. That wasn't the point I was making, anyway. I was merely explaining the distrust of the health care industry. If you'd slow down with your preaching you'd have seen that.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 09 10:45 am |
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In my school district, kids aren't allowed in school unless they're vaccinated.
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There exists no separation between gods and men; one blends softly casual to the other.
Proverbs of Muad'Dib
www.jacurutu.com
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 09 11:19 am |
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I think it is the same here, I know it was when I was a kid.
I had a reaction to one vaccine, but my mom says it was because they gave it to me twice (at the same time).. I think it was the MMR vaccine.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 09 4:34 pm |
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| Ninti wrote: |
| Dude, I'm not anti vaccine, and neither is anyone who has posted in this thread. |
I'm pretty sure I haven't accused anyone in this thread of being anti vaccine. And it was not my intention to call anyone here that either.
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| You don't need to condescend to us the way you've obviously been doing on some other forum. I don't need to read your links to know about vaccines. I don't need an education from you and I refuse to condemn frightened parents of children with autism, even if I don't agree with them. |
And I wouldn't ever suggest condemming them. They're scared and have every right to be IMHO. They are however, misguided if they believe vaccines caused the autism. That was the point I was hammering at.
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| The anti vaccine movement is rarely heard from in the media here, so I don't think their influence is that great. |
Their influence is great enough that we are seeing outbreaks of measles and meningitis when there are effective and safe vaccines for these.
And anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything. :smile: It's great if it isn't happening in your area but it is happening in others.
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| I don't know anyone who doesn't get their children vaccinated for school, and most of the people I know also get flu vaccines. So you can drop the aggressive debate style.. it's making you look a little nutty. |
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| You come across like a zealot, unwilling to even comprehend what anyone else is saying. |
Honestly? *shrugs* I answer the questions I see. Sometimes I see the wrong question, when it's pointed out I'll try to answer the new question.
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| I explained to you why some people do not trust the big pharmaceutical companies and you replied with some BS about how they're required by law to make a profit. Companies are not required by law to lobby congress or support politicians. They are not required by law to make as much profit as they possibly can no matter how they do it. Maybe they are in your country, but not in the US. |
Profit was the wrong term to use. Revenue would have been a much better one. And specifically it's more to make the most revenue for their shareholders. And I did explicitly say legal profit, again, should have replaced with revenue. And a legal way of increasing the revenue is through lobbying by getting laws more amendable to your business. The culture around lobbying is disgusting and very questionable but unless the culture and laws change it is still legal.
And I tried to address your point by saying that if people don't trust in the medical industry then they really shouldn't trust in the 'alternative health' industry as they do take your money with no treatment in return. That was a poor way of addressing that point so lets try it again. :smile:
I've lived my entire life in a country with a UHC system. So I've found it very interesting to watch the absolute viritol over the attempt to create a UHC lite in the States. From my point of view the lack of trust for the majority of the health industry is in the insurance companies who will do what they legally can to maximise their revenue. This of course makes sense as they are a public company with shareholders demanding returns. To do this they will refuse anyone who will likely cost them money in the long term as well as minimize the amount they pay out when someone gets sick. This results in people that don't trust the insurance companies and then seem to equate it with the industry as a whole.
Though having pharmaceutical companies advertising direct to consumers is suspect as well, and that includes the herbal stuff.
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| That wasn't the point I was making, anyway. I was merely explaining the distrust of the health care industry. If you'd slow down with your preaching you'd have seen that. |
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Vice Head of House Harkonnen
Pain is relative.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 09 5:38 pm |
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| Ninti wrote: |
| Well, I don't think she's doing any real harm. |
I have no way of knowing for sure that she has caused any harm, but she certainly has the potential to do so. She has spoken on this topic before, as I said, on Oprah, who is helping her get her own talk show. And do you know how many scientifically illiterate people take whatever they see on such shows as the gospel truth?
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 09 7:02 pm |
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Well, that's the first I've heard about her talk show, but it probably won't be about autism and vaccines (hopefully, anyway).
Holy sh*t! I just went to my Twitter page and noticed people giving Brent Spiner a hard time because he thinks people should be informed before getting vaccines for their children (he's not anti, he's just cautious about it I guess. It's hard to tell in 140 words). Anyway this led to a link to Wired Magazine's website. Is this just blowing up right now or something? I swear I haven't read anything about it in the paper or seen it on TV.
Interesting article about Paul Offit http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/all/1
This bit right here is what I was talking about in the media:
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| This isn’t a religious dispute, like the debate over creationism and intelligent design. It’s a challenge to traditional science that crosses party, class, and religious lines. It is partly a reaction to Big Pharma’s blunders and PR missteps, from Vioxx to illegal marketing ploys, which have encouraged a distrust of experts. It is also, ironically, a product of the era of instant communication and easy access to information. The doubters and deniers are empowered by the Internet (online, nobody knows you’re not a doctor) and helped by the mainstream media, which has an interest in pumping up bad science to create a “debate” where there should be none. |
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 09 8:37 pm |
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I really believe it's starting to come to a head. As we start to see more and more of these 'eradicated' diseases coming back and with the 'new media' allowing smart scientists and experts the ability to directly communicate the facts to the populace it's changing how the basic information is being communicated. It also helps people realize these 'experts' aren't faceless and emotionless beings but people just like you and me with families and friends.
Now should you question vaccines? I think it's healthy to have questions. What you should do is go and talk to your GP and not listen to a talkshow host, actor or someone without the proper training. I don't know what Spiner's take on vaccines is so I'll hold judgement but if he's encouraging talking to your GP over just not taking them then I think that's a good idea.
Edit:
Looked a bit into it and I'm a worried. He says "investigate it" but he points to a known pseudo scientist as a good resource earlier. I'd rather he say go talk to your GP as opposed to just investigate it because to be honest most people don't have the training to really look into the research. Hell, that's why I use resources like quackwatch and Science Based Medicine. :smile: And at the moment the pseudoscience crowd has a much more wide ranging, powerful and well funded PR base full of FUD and misinformation. That is changing I believe.
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Vice Head of House Harkonnen
Pain is relative.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 09 6:55 am |
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 09 9:22 am |
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That was excellent reading, Mentat. Thanks.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 09 7:10 pm |
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I don't claim to know all about epidemics or anything like that. I do know I am not gtting vaccinated and neither are my kids. Call us lucky, or not, we already got a taste of the swine flu last spring and we had it pretty mild.
My whole thing with vaccinations is it is all risk, sort of the same if you do or don't. I will leave that results in the hands of mother nature instead of men making profits.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 09 7:23 pm |
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| mockingbird wrote: |
| My whole thing with vaccinations is it is all risk, sort of the same if you do or don't. I will leave that results in the hands of mother nature instead of men making profits. |
That's the same kind of inability to correctly assess risk that actually allows some people to make profits. If most people were good at risk assessment, all the casinos would be out of business, for example. 
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 09 7:45 pm |
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If you've already had the swine flu, then you should be immune to it now anyway.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 09 2:42 am |
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| mockingbird wrote: |
I don't claim to know all about epidemics or anything like that. I do know I am not getting vaccinated and neither are my kids. Call us lucky, or not, we already got a taste of the swine flu last spring and we had it pretty mild.
My whole thing with vaccinations is it is all risk, sort of the same if you do or don't. I will leave that results in the hands of mother nature instead of men making profits. |
Well I hope you aren't following basic hygiene practices as that puts you in the hands of corporations which sell cleaning products, pump clean water to your house, remove the trash from your streets, do research into scientifically based medicine, and more.
If you have any specific claims or questions then please post them. :) Vaccines have been shown to be safe, effective and cheap in comparison to the damage caused by these diseases.
And to address your implication that profits are bad I will just point out if profit was their concern then those vaccine producing companies are stupid because there is much more revenue in treatment than vaccination. Vaccination stops you from getting sick in the first place. Coupled with you know fairly well how many doses you need every year for childhood vaccines then the profit margin is much smaller in vaccines compared to the big brand name drugs like Viagra.
http://www.vaccineethics.org/issue_briefs/industry.php
And I've addressed the 'risk' of vaccines. It's non zero but so much smaller than the damage caused by the disease itself. If risk weren't an issue we'd all have to get the smallpox vaccine as a kid as well and that kills about one in a million which is why it was removed from the vaccine schedule after smallpox was eradicated.
And as Ninti mentioned. If you did get Swine flu earlier this year you're probably good. But I'd only say that if you had it lab confirmed and even then I'd probably still get the vaccine just to be safe.
Though guess what. I'm not a medical doctor. So you should go to your GP to get some actual medical advice. :)
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Vice Head of House Harkonnen
Pain is relative.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 09 5:28 am |
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Having this vaccines is not bad it serves as protection though there are some people have their allergic reactions towards it they have to test it first before taking it.
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